Forum Archive : Tournaments

Seeding From:   Roland Scheicher Address:   roland_scheicher@yahoo.de Date:   2 December 1998 Subject:   How should players be seeded at an elimination tournament Forum:   rec.games.backgammon Google:   36656E33.DA796699@xss.co.at How should players be seeded at an elimination tournament? Suppose we have eight players ranked from 1 to 8. In my mind there are two plausible ways to seed them: A: B: 1-+ 1-+ +---+ +---+ 5-+ | 8-+ | +---+ +---+ 3-+ | | 4-+ | | +---+ | +---+ | 7-+ | 5-+ | +---- +---- 2-+ | 2-+ | +---+ | +---+ | 6-+ | | 7-+ | | +---+ +---+ 4-+ | 3-+ | +---+ +---+ 8-+ 6-+ In (A) the difference of ranks is equal: in the first round it's 4 = 5-1 = 7-3 = 6-2 = 8-4; if any player defeats the higher ranked player then in the 2nd round it's 2 = 3-1 = 4-2 and in the final it's 1 = 2-1. The pairing in the first round is the same as in the Swiss tournament system used in chess. In (B) the sum of the ranks is equal: in the first round it's 9, in the 2nd round it's 5 and in the final it's 3. I think (A) should be preferred since ANY seeding favors the good and (B) goes a little bit too far in my mind. Which of these two possibilities is used at backgammon (or e.g. tennis tourneys)? David desJardins  writes: Generally you want the top player to play the bottom player, and so on. The reason is that, otherwise, it can be advantageous to underreport your strength in order to get a lower seed and an easier opponent. I find it surprising that chess tournaments work any other way. But they do have the advantage of a reliable way to generate seedings, which can't easily be manipulated (the rating system). David desJardins Chuck Bower  writes: I believe the second one is common in sporting events (like tennis and basketball). But we're talking BG! Back in the 70's I remember backgammon touraments being seeded. Of the dozen or so tourneys I've attended since returning to the game in 1992, NONE has been seeded. All pairings have been RANDOM DRAW. Why? I believe the answer is simple. At backgammon you don't really know who the best players are, because of the luck factor. Sure, you can say "A, B, and C have had the best tournament success. They're among the best". But which is #1? And you have to seed an entire field! Also, if byes go according to seeds, the unfairness can be magnified. Backgammon tournaments tend to attract a range of players. Some believe in non-random luck; some don't. Almost everyone has a higher opinion of his/herself than is warranted. Basically that is human nature but the "dice factor" certainly magnifies the effect. I believe that seeding in US tournaments fell out of favor because of these nebulosities (and a lot of hurt feelings, and beliefs that injustices had occurred). I think the promoters felt that attendance would be better if there was an attempt to treat players equally rather than giving some an advantage based at least partially on subjective factors. I'm not saying you SHOULDN'T seed. "Objective" seeding could be used in a year-end tournament as a reward for annual attendance at weekly games, for example. (Rather than rewarding based simply upon attendance, better might be to seed based on club points which are awarded for matches won during the year, or for coming in 1st/2nd at the weekly game.) You could seed based on ratings (e.g. ratings on a server) but this has a downside as well. But now I'm returning to a oft debated topic in this newsgroup, so I think I'll just leave it at this. Chuck bower@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu c_ray on FIBS   Did you find the information in this article useful?           Do you have any comments you'd like to add?

 

Tournaments

Adjusting to face-to-face play  (Paul Epstein+, Feb 2006) 

Adjusting to face-to-face play  (Daniel Murphy, June 1999) 

Avoiding disputes  (Kit Woolsey+, Oct 2007) 

Baffle box to roll dice  (Ken Bame, Mar 2012) 

Calcutta auctions  (David Moeser, Nov 2001) 

Calcutta auctions  (Roland Scheicher+, Dec 1998) 

Calcutta auctions  (Anthony R Wuersch, Oct 1994) 

Calcutta problems  (Marty Storer, Dec 2002) 

Clock ethics  (Patrick Gibson+, Mar 2009) 

Clock rules--Digital clocks  (Chuck Bower+, Oct 2003) 

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Clock rules--How do they work?  (Gregg Cattanach, Oct 2002) 

Clock rules--Illegal move  (Brendan Burgess+, Feb 2000) 

Clock rules--Why forfeit instead of penalty points?  (neilkaz, Sept 2010) 

Clocks and older players  (Stick+, July 2010) 

Clocks--Arguments against them  (Timothy Chow, Jan 2011) 

Clocks--Common arguments against  (Chuck Bower, Feb 2006) 

Clocks--Losing on time  (Jason Lee+, Mar 2004) 

Clocks--Pros and cons  (Michael Strato+, Jan 2004) 

Clocks--Should they be part of the game?  (Kit Woolsey, June 1995) 

Clocks--Why use them  (Stick, Jan 2011) 

Compensating for byes  (Hank Youngerman+, Dec 1998) 

Factors that affect attendance  (Stick, Oct 2009) 

"Fighter's bracket"  (Chuck Bower+, Sept 2010) 

First backgammon tournament  (Mislav Radica+, May 2007) 

First backgammon tournament  (Ed Collins+, Dec 2006) 

Hedging  (Jason Lee+, Apr 2009) 

Hedging  (Marv Porten+, Feb 2009) 

Hedging  (Tad Bright+, Jan 2003) 

Hitting clock instead of rolling  (Bob Glass+, Mar 2010) 

Keeping score during a match  (Gregg Cattanach, June 2007) 

Links to tournament rules  (Daniel Murphy, Oct 2009) 

Major tournament attendance 1998-2008  (Daniel Murphy, July 2008) 

Making notes during play  (Randy Pals+, Aug 2008) 

Manually recording a match  (Kevin P+, Apr 2007) 

Manually recording a match  (gammonus+, Feb 2006) 

Manually recording a match  (Daniel Murphy, Aug 1999) 

New U.S. Rules  (Gregg Cattanach+, Dec 2007) 

Newbie questions  (Donald Kahn, Oct 1999) 

Playing at Monte Carlo  (Achim, July 2007) 

Playing-off 3 remaining players  (Gregg Cattanach+, Apr 2007) 

Recording matches  (Robert Maier, May 2009) 

Recording matches  (Chuck Bower+, Sept 2003) 

Recording matches  (Sean Dakin+, Aug 1999) 

Round robins  (Hank Youngerman, Nov 2001) 

Rules for doubles play (with a partner)  (steve+, May 2012) 

Seeding  (Roland Scheicher+, Dec 1998) 

Skill level  (Kirk J. Rupnik+, Nov 1998) 

Skill levels  (Leonardo Jerkovic, Aug 2012) 

"Stop pots"  (Chuck Bower+, Sept 2010) 

Swiss format  (Osman Guner+, May 2001) 

Swiss format  (Osman Guner, Oct 1998) 

Swiss format  (Hank Youngerman+, Mar 1998) 

Tournament formats  (MikeMadMonk+, May 2003) 

Tournament rules  (Daniel Murphy, Apr 2001) 

Tournament rules links  (Daniel Murphy, Oct 2009) 

Types of events  (Daniel Murphy, Nov 1997) 

Uniform rules and procedures?  (Michael Crane+, Mar 2003) 

Variable side pools  (Art Grater+, July 2011) 

Vegas trip report (fall 2004)  (Gregg Cattanach, Nov 2004) 

Vegas trip report (spring 2005)  (Gregg Cattanach, May 2005) 

Videotaping matches  (André Nicoulin+, Nov 2000) 

What is a "Monrad format"?  (Daniel Murphy, Sept 2000) 

What is a "side pool"?  (Daniel Murphy, Nov 1997) 

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