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Hedging

From:   Marv Porten
Address:   MarvPorten@gmail.com
Date:   26 February 2009
Subject:   Some questions about hedging in tournaments
Forum:   rec.games.backgammon

1. Is hedging allowed in the $ rounds of all ABT tournaments?

2. Are there any tournaments where the staff is actively involved in the
hedging process, or is it solely between the two players?

3. If a dispute arises about a hedge, will the tournament staff get
involved in hearing the dispute and making a decision?

4. Is it frowned upon when the clearly weaker player asks the clearly
stronger player to hedge? Should only the stronger player be the one
suggesting a hedge, if at all?

5. Is it an insult to ask the other player to sign a written hedge
agreement?

6. Has anyone had (or know of) a bad experience with someone reneging on a
hedge agreement?

7. Is it bad form to try to modify the hedge agreement in the middle of the
match? (For example, the hedge is $500 at the beginning, but at DMP one of
the players suggests increasing the hedge to $1000.)

8. Must the winner pay the loser at the end of the match? Or is it standard
to wait for payment until the end of the tournament when prizes are
awarded? (I heard about a tournament in Europe where the prize money was
robbed before players were paid.)

9. What are some guidelines for determining the amount of the hedge?

Answers to questions that should have been asked are also appreciated.

Stick  writes:

> 1. Is hedging allowed in the $ rounds of all ABT tournaments?

Yes. You can hedge at any time with anyone for that matter. I've swapped 5%
of another player (Steve Sax) from before the tournament started.

> 2. Are there any tournaments where the staff is actively involved in the
> hedging process, or is it solely between the two players?

Solely between the players.

> 3. If a dispute arises about a hedge, will the tournament staff get
> involved in hearing the dispute and making a decision?

I highly doubt the staff would be involved. The hedge is made between the
players, the money is distributed by the staff to the winner/runner-up/w/e
as marked for the prize distribution. After that it's up to the players to
sort out their own hedges.

> 4. Is it frowned upon when the clearly weaker player asks the clearly
> stronger player to hedge? Should only the stronger player be the one
> suggesting a hedge, if at all?

Of course it's not frowned upon. You can offer up any hedge you like and if
the stronger player doesn't like it he can politely decline or counter
offer, hedging with odds for eg.

> 5. Is it an insult to ask the other player to sign a written hedge
> agreement?

I would laugh if you asked me to sign something, I would never. Whether
it's an insult or not, yes, I guess so, but I'd find it more comical than
anything.

> 6. Has anyone had (or know of) a bad experience with someone reneging on
> a hedge agreement?

Not to my knowledge, I've never had a problem. I don't hedge much to begin
with and if I do it's likely because I know them already or I feel we're
near equal in playing strength also meaning they're well known and I likely
know them so there's nothing to fear.

> 7. Is it bad form to try to modify the hedge agreement in the middle of
> the match? (For example, the hedge is $500 at the beginning, but at DMP
> one of the players suggests increasing the hedge to $1000.)

No, this particular example is fine. I don't hedge but often I will
reconsider hedging at DMP. I was playing doubles in the money round with
Steve Sax as a partner and we offered a hedge being down 3-0 to 7. The
other team accepted an equal hedge.

> 8. Must the winner pay the loser at the end of the match? Or is it
> standard to wait for payment until the end of the tournament when prizes
> are awarded? (I heard about a tournament in Europe where the prize money
> was robbed before players were paid.)

It depends. If they have the money they likely pay them on the spot, if
not, they can wait, it's no big deal.

> 9. What are some guidelines for determining the amount of the hedge?

I'll let others tackle this. I'm not a fan of hedging though as mentioned,
against equal opponents I will consider it and perhaps in a huggggggggggge
money event, like Europe, I'd consider a hedge against a weaker player.

Stick

jdg  writes:

When I played a Vegas tourney a few years back, the desk had hedging forms
and handled the adjustments.

Sam Pottle  writes:

There was a hedge in the finals of the PartyGammon Million two years ago.
You'd better believe that was done in writing!

David Rockwell  writes:

> 4. Is it frowned upon when the clearly weaker player asks the clearly
> stronger player to hedge? Should only the stronger player be the one
> suggesting a hedge, if at all?

I think it is always OK to ask -- once. Pressuring someone who has said no
should certainly be frowned upon.

Richard Munich  writes:

I had an interesting experience of this nature at the World Championships
two years ago. It was the quarterfinals. The winner was guaranteed E13000
plus more for further advancement. The loser was guaranteed nothing. My
opponent who I knew to be a weaker player asked to hedge. I told him no
thank you I was not interested. He kept pushing and pushing. Finally I
offered to hedge with odds. It was a 21 point match and I told him I
thought 2:1 odds were fair. He asked me to explain and after I did, HE got
insulted. At that point I said - I'm not forcing you to bet with me, if you
want to hedge go find out from the bookies what odds they'd give you for a
bet on me. He sent his friend and shortly Morten Holm arrived at our table.
My opponent soon found himself in a state of shock when he found out that
the book also considered me a 2:1 favorite in the match. He was furious.
However, he discovered that as a result of his underdog status, he could
get better than even money on himself. He'll show everyone. So he pulled
E500 out of his pocket handed it to Morton and bet on himself. In the end,
he lost the match, got nothing, and was out an additional 500 Euro.

I generally don't hedge as it avoids any issue of what is fair. The
fairest, most equitable hedge is no hedge, just as the fairest settlement
of a backgammon position is to play the game to conclusion. It is simply
the most volatile arrangement. But unless two players agree that they are
very close in skill, or one of the players is motivated to make a
concession, odds on a hedge are reasonable for discussion. The issue is
whether the two players can agree on the odds.

Coolrey  writes:

> 1. Is hedging allowed in the $ rounds of all ABT tournaments?

Yes

> 2. Are there any tournaments where the staff is actively involved in the
> hedging process, or is it solely between the two players?

Not really, but if the hedge were high enough, the Director could be
included... and divide the money accordingly. That is not unheard of, both
players should approach him and simply ask.

> 3. If a dispute arises about a hedge, will the tournament staff get
> involved in hearing the dispute and making a decision?

Not unless they were consulted in the first place, probably, so consult
with them if you feel there is any chance of a disagreement or more likely
a language barrier of some kind.

> 4. Is it frowned upon when the clearly weaker player asks the clearly
> stronger player to hedge? Should only the stronger player be the one
> suggesting a hedge, if at all?

NO, except by the stronger player. This is an insult to him, but ironically
if he is self assured enough to ask for "odds" on the hedge which is
actually the most reasonable of the two requests, the weaker player is
often offended and the expert is cast in a negative light. This is one
reason why really strong players simply refuse to hedge. A level headed
player who knows his opponent is a favorite should simply pay him the
respect he is due by offering 11-10, or perhaps 6-5 odds in the first place
to hedge. Experts don't want to lose in the money round any more than you
do, but they play percentages. If they are going to beat you 5 out of 9
matches, and you agree to hedge say $500, then after those 9 matches they
will have paid out $2500, and you will have paid only $2000. In essence it
has cost the expert $500 to hedge with you, or about $45. Think of the
weaker player as a panhandler in front of the Wal Mart, asking you for $50.
He looks capable of working, just like you DO. Will you pay him?

> 5. Is it an insult to ask the other player to sign a written hedge
> agreement?

It's not an insult, but it is unusual. Normally hedge amounts are on the
order of 10% of the prize amount being played for. The winner will have the
money, it is bad form to seek a written agreement unless your opponent is
known to be unscrupulous which is fortunately rather rare in backgammon. In
that case it is another good reason to involve the director perhaps, or not
hedge at all.

> 6. Has anyone had (or know of) a bad experience with someone reneging on
> a hedge agreement?

Yes. Joe Sylvester, a world class player, super nice guy and a former
recreational drug addict once offered Art Benjamin 2-1 odds on a $1000
hedge in Monte Carlo when Art reached the round of 8. Art lost, and never
got paid.

> 7. Is it bad form to try to modify the hedge agreement in the middle of
> the match? (For example, the hedge is $500 at the beginning, but at DMP
> one of the players suggests increasing the hedge to $1000.)

It is quite often a normal occurrence to increase the hedge or renegotiate
it during the match. I have done this often myself, offering to split the
money at a critical, (albeit in my favor), juncture. Be prepared to
negotiate, and be friendly about it. Then, pay if you win and be happy!

> 8. Must the winner pay the loser at the end of the match? Or is it
> standard to wait for payment until the end of the tournament when prizes
> are awarded? (I heard about a tournament in Europe where the prize money
> was robbed before players were paid.)

If it is an amount over a couple hundred dollars, it is normal practice to
collect after the winner gets paid. It is good practice to discuss when the
hedge will be settled before you play. ie: You should note that you do NOT
have $1000 right now, so you will pay when you collect at the end of the
tournament. Everybody loses if the tournament gets robbed, I would think.

> 9. What are some guidelines for determining the amount of the hedge?

Mostly it is how much money you want to get. Maybe you want to cover your
entry fee... or EF + 200, whatever. I usually ask my opponent how much he
would like to make if he loses?. This provides me a nice moment to discuss
the odds I want, (if I feel so entitled). If he says, how about $500? I'll
say, okay, I will pay you $500 if I win, but if you win, you pay me $600
because I am the favorite. Ok? It's a place to start negotiations.
 
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Do you have any comments you'd like to add?     

 

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